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  #1  
Old 04-03-2018, 12:56 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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Default The impact of stable ALK with KHG

Hello all,
just wanted to share some experience I been going through over the past 9months.
I have always heard in the past how important it is to have a stable KH, especially in zeovit system given the system is run on a tight and UNLS parameters.
I used to measure alk once a week, and adjust my dosing accordingly. but every now and then I would have SPS stressed out for no reason especially during water change day.
then I started measuring alk daily, and what I noticed is that there are days KH consumption is low and days high. so what I concluded is that some days when the KH consumption is low (coral is not going through calcification), though my tank need less KH dosing, my doser will dose the fixed amount which bring the KH value to above 8, then on days when my KH consumption is high, my fixed dosing is not enough and my KH drop to 6.3.
such fluctuation stressed my coral and cuased a lot of the issues. useaully the WC days are the worst cause when I do 20% WC my KH actually spike, then my doer add more KH which bring the KH value to high values.
Enter KH guardian. I got myself a KH guardian and had it set to measure my KH 8 times a day. and what was revealed during my usage is amazing. during the day my coral KH consumption actually vary quite a lot, and if I have fixed dosing quantity, my LKH value in the tank can vary from 8.3 to 7. and after WC my KH would spike up to 8.3.
further more, it was amazing seeing the KH consumption trend where i have more consumption during peak photo period (coral growing) and low KH consumption during night.
using KHG I regulated my Alk value (KHG measure and control the doser to add KH as needed only).
this made my tank KH super stable with range of 7~7.3. over 9 months, my growth improved significantly, I never lost a coral or got RTN/STN and coral coloration improved.
all data indicate that this improvement was mainly from the stable KH i was able to maintain thanks to KHG.
that's why now i am a big supporter of at least daily KH measurements, regardless of how stable your system is, it is hard to predict the calcification process trend over couple of days.
before i got KHG i did a lot of research on the market to invest in the right equipment, and KHG was a clear winner.
other kits (released and yet to be released) missing features KHG offer for free
1- KHG do not need extra dosers to control ALK. most of what was in the market at the time, do measurement only, to control you need extra doser. which if you aggregate total cost it comes way higher than the KHG. if we look at some of whats coming soon, we see measurement only devices, then marketing campaign asking us to buy expensive dosers (the claim usually is, if you want reliability buy our doser), some even ask for full controller upgrades. such solutions cost more than $1300 if you compare apple to apple(measure device+doser+controller..etc).
2- KHG was small footprint which was very important. such equipment need to be inside the cabinet, for reef systems real-estate is important. i did not have enough space under my tank.
3- KH offered control and monitor only solution, i ended up going with the control, but i know couple of reefers who have monitor only KHG and all what they do is control a cheap doser based on the KH values by the KHG using any controller (GHL, Apex..etc)
4- KHG was compatible with all common controller. i hooked it up to my old Apex and its working like a charm
5- customer support by KHG team was world class
6- reagent is relatively cheap, one reagent packet last 2 to 4 months (depend on how often you test) this was important, as you do not want to change reagent often
7- KHG use a reagent that can be dumped back in the tank, i was very sceptic of this at first, but i sent a test water sample to ICP test and all parameters came back within the recommended values, i did not see harmful sustains. that being said i am not doing that and instead dumping my KHG test water in my skimmer waste container
8- finally, KHG performance was very stable. for 6 months, i cross correlated KH measurement values to common kits like salifert, and every single time the values are matched. some times when values do not match, i use brand new salifert kit, and realize that KH is giving the correct value while the older kit values where shifted which BTW is common complaint from reefers where they see the accuracy of the kit shift by time.

i will conclude by say: test your ALK daily if you can at least for couple of months to understand your system trend, get yourself a KHG if possible and enjoy your reefing

Last edited by ohashimz; 04-03-2018 at 01:09 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2018, 01:50 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
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Default

couple of more thing:
I can see how with higher PH, more Alk/CA is being consumed which prove the correlation between PH and calcification process.
this is a picture of a typical day reading of the PH and ALK. we can see alk value increase during night when PH is low, then start decreasing (more consumption) during high PH values. which to me make sense. during day, high PH, coral growing more ALK/CA consumed.

furthermore, once I stabilized my ALk I noticed another phenomena, in the past my CA and ALK used to not match in term of amount I need to dose (percentage wise).
once I stabilized alk, my CA?ALK consumption because the same. meaning, when I needed to reduce ALK, I needed to reduce CA with the same percentage. this was great because, I realized in reality if we can control ALK I did not need to measure CA as well to control it, I just follow the same percentage reduction of increase in the CA as to the ALK.

SO: I realized that if I use the KHG to measure ALK, all what I need to do is to turn off my 4 channel doser when I want to suspend ALK which will suspend CA dosing as well, and turn it on when I want more dosing of ALK which will dose CA with the same percentage. so at least for my system, reality was, all I needed is KHG and I can control both CA and ALK with high accuracy. this kind of match what other systems I was on, like redsea, where they clearly correlate ALK/CA consumption by measuring one of them only and dose the rest of the elements based on this one element. I think this is important, the less we burden reefing community with costs and measurements the better, so I liked that with KHG alone I did what was needed for my system instead of spending so much money on upgrading controllers, adding extra dosers and add expensive measurement devices.

The best 2 investments I have done to my system over the last 2 years where the KHG and the PRS auto zeo reactor
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  #3  
Old 04-03-2018, 08:38 PM
65GMe 65GMe 目前離線
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Join Date: May 2011
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I've been running the KHG for about 7 months now, I hardly trust it at all and only use it for trends. I have zero confidence in it's absolute accuracy. I have seen my KHG give me a reading of 8.3 but when I go to test it with salifert, it gives me a reading of 7.8. I then go to make the necessary auto adjustment in the KHG which will be fine for a week or so then it'll be off again. I still test my ALK every other day with Salifert.

I used to trust the KHG the first several months I had it but now it's not very accurate IMO. PH fluctuations could throw a reading off. I am sure you see your KH go up and down testing 8 times a day. That up and down is most likely due to the PH since the KHG base it's readings off of the PH probe. I'm waiting for the trident to come out which uses tritation rather than a PH probe to get readings.
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  #4  
Old 04-03-2018, 08:58 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GMe View Post
I've been running the KHG for about 7 months now, I hardly trust it at all and only use it for trends. I have zero confidence in it's absolute accuracy. I have seen my KHG give me a reading of 8.3 but when I go to test it with salifert, it gives me a reading of 7.8. I then go to make the necessary auto adjustment in the KHG which will be fine for a week or so then it'll be off again. I still test my ALK every other day with Salifert.

I used to trust the KHG the first several months I had it but now it's not very accurate IMO. PH fluctuations could throw a reading off. I am sure you see your KH go up and down testing 8 times a day. That up and down is most likely due to the PH since the KHG base it's readings off of the PH probe. I'm waiting for the trident to come out which uses tritation rather than a PH probe to get readings.
Here is what I have seen that yielded solid results...
1- acurrate and consistent rodi amount when you mix reagent. When you use slightly diffrent amount, you will need to adjust the correct factor. I use scale and add exactly 1500 ml
2- calibrate the ph prob every 3 months or every time I change the reagent
3- changed my doser head pharm tubing every 6 months per the manufacturer's recommendation. They are dirt cheap
4- update to the latest few
5- make sure your khg is not the one that had issue with the pCB, they had a batch that had an issue and they recalled and asked customers to send it back to coralvue to change the PCB board
6- check all every time you change the reagent to make sure u do not need to adjust correction factor.
7- make sure ph prob us st the right depth. The depth needed is diffrent between control version vs monitor only version

I have been running it for 9 months and 100% depend on it. I cross correlated daily for many months and now cross correlate every month only..super reliable equipment if used correctly. My reading logs are spot on.
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  #5  
Old 04-03-2018, 08:59 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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I actually have clear data that salifert degrade over time, any salifert kit once you start using it will give bad readings in a month, try get new salifert and do a test and compare it to 1 month old salifert, I guarantee you you will get diffrent readings.
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:02 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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One last thing. The idea that trident is more accurate because its titration is not true. Read Randy's posts on kh calculation based in oh value...I think neptune is doing a good job with their marketing campaign that's all.
It is yet to be seen how accurate trident will be with such high price tag.
My issue with trident is that you pay such a high premium to get what khg give...but this is my personal opinion and can be debated
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:38 PM
65GMe 65GMe 目前離線
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Join Date: May 2011
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All points noted especially when mixing the reagent and calibrating the PH probe. I did have to send my unit back in to switch out the board. I believe the issue was some missing values on the KH readings.

This is the thing that bothers me, I have to make adjustments to the readings on a monthly basis because salifert and hanna alkalinity checker reads slightly lower than the KHG. I had to send back my KHG at least three times already and each time there was something wrong with the unit. If it works for you, I am glad to hear that as it's a really expensive unit. I got it when it first came out.

I've double checked salifert before. I always have two kits on hand and every time I get a new kit in, I do a test with the old and the new kit. They are always spot on and read the same.

Right now I just use the KHG to see if something is off. I don't worry too much with my dastaco2 calcium reactor, it's a great reactor and I never need to worry about a clogged effluent line. It's kept my KH rock solid for the past 5 months.
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:10 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Of you think titration will not have these pain point I would recommend wait for reviews before u purchase trident. Ssliefrt is titration and there are so much inaccuracies and by time it shift in readings.
My tastings are very methodical and careful, and I promise you, I have never seen 2 salifert kits (diffrent open box date) give same readings

If you would like to dive deep in it see this thread:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/co...s-done.376231/
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  #9  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:12 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Oh btw would love to learn about your dastaco...how do you like it? Someone have recommended it for me do you have the one that self regulate? Do u mind give me some pointers?
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  #10  
Old 04-04-2018, 01:47 AM
65GMe 65GMe 目前離線
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Join Date: May 2011
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I'm definitely going to wait for reviews on the trident before making any purchase. I already have the KHG which cost a small fortune and to me, it's only okay. I'm waiting to see if the KHD from GHL and the Trident from Neptune works good. With salifert, I can get the same DKH readings from two different test kits which I always have on hand.

Tonight my KHG reading 8.13 after a test, Salifert reading 8 shortly after KHG test. I go into KHG to make a correction of -0.13 for DKH reading, retest and KHG gives me a new reading of 8.16! LOL, it should have now read 8 DKH. I always test at least twice with salifert and sometimes Hanna to cross check. Either way, I will trust salifert more because the results are repeatable but lets not debate so much about that lol.

Regarding the dastaco, it's a great reactor. I switched over from GHL dosers when I had to dose close to 80ml a day of ca and alk. I really like the dastaco reactor and it was really easy to dial in using the KHG when it was still very accurate for me. What do you mean by self regulate? I assume you mean it makes all the necessary correction when you need more alk? If that is the case, then yes. They all come with a controller with two dials on them. One dial is for vent setting so the reactor will shut off and purge itself of any air that gets into the reactor. The second dial is for how much alk you want to supply to your tank a day. It's very very easy to adjust, just turn the dial up for a little bit more alk or lower for less alk. No need to adjust bubble counter or flow rate and never have to worry about clogged effluent line. The peristaltic pump is very accurate and determines the flow rate based on the position of the alk dial.

I always used dosers before because setting up a calcium reactor seems very complicated to me but the dastaco made it very easy for me to transition from doser to carx.

I recommend it to anyone that can afford it. I believe if you buy a regular carx with quality regulator, second media chamber and all that good stuff, the cost comes really close to a dastaco. If you have any questions, let me know.
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2018, 01:50 AM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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What size do you have and what's your system size?
They are big reactors are not they?
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  #12  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:11 AM
65GMe 65GMe 目前離線
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I believe the model I have is the A3 which I purchased from unique corals. I had a couple hiccups in the beginning but they took care of me right away. My system volume is about 380-400 gallons. The reactors themselves are fairly tall. The A3 I have is about 30"+ tall.
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  #13  
Old 04-04-2018, 09:41 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Some technical data behind alk measurments.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/kh.../#post-3361998

Khg use titration to measure all based in this measurments theory which is used in labs.
The thread is fun read for those who enjoy scientific debates lol.

What made khg stand out to me is that it uses ph reading of an isolated ph prob inside an isolated chamber which improve the accuracy greatly.
It is yet to be seen how accurate ither methods that depend on the tank ph prob which is prone to more margin of error...
This is why calibrating the ph probes is important for alk measurments.

Enjoy.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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  #14  
Old 04-08-2018, 07:54 PM
Younger Younger 目前離線
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GMe View Post
I've been running the KHG for about 7 months now, I hardly trust it at all and only use it for trends. I have zero confidence in it's absolute accuracy. I have seen my KHG give me a reading of 8.3 but when I go to test it with salifert, it gives me a reading of 7.8. I then go to make the necessary auto adjustment in the KHG which will be fine for a week or so then it'll be off again. I still test my ALK every other day with Salifert.

I used to trust the KHG the first several months I had it but now it's not very accurate IMO. PH fluctuations could throw a reading off. I am sure you see your KH go up and down testing 8 times a day. That up and down is most likely due to the PH since the KHG base it's readings off of the PH probe. I'm waiting for the trident to come out which uses tritation rather than a PH probe to get readings.

Please follow below steps. you will see is the KHG issue or the tank issue. I have sent this test steps to all distributors but I do not you have this test steps or not.

1. Take 5 L water from your tank.
2.Reset of you KHG
3. Set KHG interval test at 60 mins.
4. Put the last kh box the same value as 5 L water. ( suggest to us Salifert)
5. MLQ set at 0
6. Put the same number in Auto correction box value as last kh box value.
7. Start test the kh value from this 5L water.

After 6 times test, you will see KHG is with good function or not. We call it as "Static water test".
***PLEASE do not manual test during the 6 times test process.***
Please try it and show me the log data thru. support@khguardian.com
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  #15  
Old 04-09-2018, 10:22 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Younger View Post
Please follow below steps. you will see is the KHG issue or the tank issue. I have sent this test steps to all distributors but I do not you have this test steps or not.

1. Take 5 L water from your tank.
2.Reset of you KHG
3. Set KHG interval test at 60 mins.
4. Put the last kh box the same value as 5 L water. ( suggest to us Salifert)
5. MLQ set at 0
6. Put the same number in Auto correction box value as last kh box value.
7. Start test the kh value from this 5L water.

After 6 times test, you will see KHG is with good function or not. We call it as "Static water test".
***PLEASE do not manual test during the 6 times test process.***
Please try it and show me the log data thru. support@khguardian.com
am guessing this feedback from KHG team. thank you for the support.
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