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  #46  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:35 AM
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@bugger Some questions... 40% water change 2 times per month and its not enough? Also, 2 fish in a 90 gallon? Are they really, really big fish?

OK, I kid you, but this brings up some questions...

First, you see all these pics of tanks full of corals and schools of fish... so how is that a large bioload? My tank is 300 gallons and I have 2 tangs, purple and a yellow, 3" and 4" respectively.... 4 small clowns, 1" to 2", Mandarin Goby, 3", and 3 small dotybacks, ranging from 1" to 2-1/2". The clams are 2, 2.5" Squamosas and 2, 5" Maximas. Is this really a large bioload as I was literally thinking, eventually, of having somewhere close to 30 to 35 fish, depending upon their possible eventual size. Is this not realistic? Will the ZeoVit system not support this?

Secondly, I know sometimes, as i have, you use other products to accomplish something specific but the main direction for this site is to attempt to run ZEOvit as a stand alone system, capable of keeping a ULN system. Right? Meaning this is not just another salt water tank board with me screaming "help me my phosphates are too high, what do i do?"
With having to do such large water changes and the additional products, is the ZEOvit system not able to accomplish this? I am only changing 60 gallons per month, so approximately 20%, not quite, as my water changes are done a gallon at a time so, in reality, Its not a full 20% but I did consider it enough.

@Bugger and G.Alexander... OK, so by the time I got home, and pulled the Phosphate Sponge, Phosphates barely show as a trace now. Apparently a very efficient product. And yes some items looked a little stressed last night but these were corals that also tipped me off that something was wrong to start with besides the diatoms. I went ahead and fed, dosed as usual, including the AA, CV and shut the lights down for the night. This morning for what I could tell, things seem to be better. I will see once the lights are on at lunch.

How do i get this under control and prevent this from happening? No new equipment has been added. Now, new livestock, yes. Also, during all this, there were five new frags that were in the back of the tank. Those, along with most corals showed no negative reaction. AND, i have 22 coral colonies in transit at this time. Now, they will be going into quarantine but I want to figure out what it is that I am doing wrong and stabilize the tank before attempting to add these. If I am understanding this right, its my bacteria population that seems to be at issue as it is not able to handle the phosphate being produced. I have a Vertex reactor and dose thru the port on the lid, which seems like it immediately flows out of the reactor, but it also flows right to the pump to be "injected" back inside the reactor.

Here is my current dozing schedule.
12 drops ZEOBak 2 times per week
12 drops Sponge Power every other day
1.2 ml ZEOStart twice per day
12 ml Coral Snow every other day
3 Drops AAHC daily one hour before lights out
5 Drops Coral Vitalizer daily one hour before lights out
1 ml Pohl's Xtra every other day (opposite Sponge Power)

Help?
Thanks,
Jeff
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  #47  
Old 01-11-2018, 01:45 PM
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Keeping 30 fish is a recipe for disaster. Your already running into problems imagine even more fish.
The thing is most people think that zeovit is so good at keeping ULNS but the fact of the matter is GFO and other methods are much better at keeping ULNS.
Zeovit is very slow to remove phosphate because it only relies on bacteria.
I dont believe in only changing one gallon at a time because when you remove the next gallon 1/300th of new water is removed again
If you look at Alexanders tank he only kept one or two fish. I feed coral food so I run into issues.
If you want to lower phosphate and stick with zeovit I would try AA LPS as it will turn into Nitrate and be used by bacteria while keeping dissolved organic material up DOM. Bulk reef supply used it heavly and their triton testing came back overly low for phosphate. Even Thomas Phol recommened it more then the high consentrate. I would start up a converstation with bulk reef supply on the reef2reef forum and see if they will answer you in there own thread
Jeff what is your Nitrate at right now
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  #48  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:45 AM
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The quick PO4 changes can cause issue so if you have removed the absorber now completely again there might be a quick increase of PO4 within a short period again so the quick up and downs are the problem. It would be better to remove the absorber step by step but this is not possible with the material you have used. Lets see what the PO4 is doing over the next couple of days.

As you have mention that the algae all grow while one day being not present at the morning, are you sure that those are not Dinoflaggelate ?

G.Alexander
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  #49  
Old 01-12-2018, 01:12 PM
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@Bugger- Nitrates sit tight right at 3 ppm. I will run a full range of tests tonight and post.
About the fish load.. I so did not know this. I heard everyone say to get your bioload up. This is the best food for your corals. Kind of disappointed.
I actually do like the water changing system tho. One gallon at a time, no worries about temp changes, or additional issues of shock as the changes are made so gradually and consistently. Stability is key, right? But, I will increase the amount being changed to 25 gallons per week.
Thanks for the advice on the AA's. I will order that.
I guess i had in mind about having a straight ZEOvit system, but it sounds like most people use more or less blended systems.

@G.Alexander - I will monitor the PO4 on a daily basis for a while. I think i got lax on testing that because it appeared to be so stable for so long I was testing frequently enough.
What product available here do you recommend for long term phosphate control, obviously as we saw, Kent's product worked very fast and efficiently but came with a warning to not be used for more then 48 hours or the phosphates would be released back into the water. Nice emergency product but useless for constant control. i have pellet reactor that could be installed in less then one minute.
Truthfully, I am not sure. They do not seem to form a film but more of a dry looking powdery coating on each sand particle. If you probe it, it barely causes and clumping and falls apart easily. It is releasing a lot of air bubbles but from what I have read that could be either.
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  #50  
Old 01-12-2018, 07:25 PM
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Keep in mind you were having success eariler while using another product vibrant bacteria.

You can still keep more fish if your willing to put in the extra effort with additional products or if your a purest get some bio mate and cyano clean.
Even if you look into the featured tanks many swayed away from zeovit or used other products while using zeovit.
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  #51  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:02 PM
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IMO it is better to find the source of the problem, getting rid of it instead of constant fighting against it. Usually you should be able to keep nutrients under control with the system, if that does not work there is something wrong. To much nutrient import compared to the output or any kind of a problem with the biology.

Can you post a picture of the brown stuff ?

Dinos do release toxins which have a negative impact to the biology and the corals.

G.Alexander
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  #52  
Old 01-17-2018, 09:04 AM
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@G.Alexander/Bugger
Here's some pics. Can you ID?
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  #53  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:54 AM
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Those look more like diatoms. Dinos or at least the ones I have had are snotty looking.
Have you been siphoning the sand bed or no.
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  #54  
Old 01-18-2018, 01:56 AM
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Do they disappear while the night growing back quick if you switch on the light in the morning ?

G.Alexander
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  #55  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:40 AM
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They did, but now they have gotten to the point that they do not totally go away by morning but they are much lighter and gone in places, but yes, they come back once the lights come on.
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  #56  
Old 01-19-2018, 02:28 AM
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This is typical for Dinos, maybe it is a combination of both. Problem is that the “treatments” are completely different so it would be good to know what exactly it is.

Do you have access to a microscope ?

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20208

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  #57  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:10 PM
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@G.Alexander/Bugger....
I am beginning to lean toward Dinoflagellates or a combination thereof. This is only anecdotal so of little actual value, but the day I was posting the original issue above, one of my fish, a large yellow tang stopped eating and would not leave his cave. The following day, he still wouldn't leave his cave and showed no other interested when the purple tang intruded in his territory. The following day, he could not stay upright. Now he would not enter his cave and hung out behind the rock and tried to swim in that area, but frequently swam on his side, upside down, nose pointed down.... etc. No other fish were affected. His skin was clear with no visible injuries, cloudiness, or parasites. I know there is ich in the tank as every now and then one will appear on the Purple Tangs fins but everyone is healthy and do not develop symptoms but its always a consideration. Several times I nearly considered euthanasia but when I looked at him, physically he looked fine, in his eyes, he was still there and he did not seem to be in pain. I left him alone. The next morning he was swimming in one place, upright but he still would not eat. The following day, he was swimming around his cave area and picked when fed. And the next day, he began eating again. I was at a loss as to the cause, wondering if it was a swim bladder issue that resolved itself. It was actually my girlfriend that pointed out that he was the only fish that picked at the algae on the gravel. Then it occurred to me as you all have mentioned and in reading that many Dino's are toxic that he had ingested these and poisoned himself. The fact that he quit eating was a good thing in that he didn't ingest enough to be fatal but maybe just some neurological effects. "Drunk?" He is now absolutely normal and not showing any lasting effects from his ordeal. Again, all conjecture on my part.

Now, back to the problem at hand. I have read so much about how problematic that Dino's can be that I had started to panic. I looked back at the product that I had used before, Vibrant and went back and read a lot of this thread on R2R. The manufacturer started a question and answer thread that is very interesting. I know i have mention this product before but i swear to you, I have no affiliation with this company and get nothing for this. I am an IT infrastructure project manager and only a hobbyist.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/vi...thread.271428/

This question below caught my attention:

"Just to clarify, you're saying all 107 pages of this dino thread could simply dose vibrant and each strain stops?
http://reef2reef.com/threads/dinofl....6#post-3227392
there wasn't any caveats listed for the dinos inclusions above, are there any threads like the one above you know of that vibrant cured dinos (also looking for how dinos were identified in the pre treatment w V, in that thread reference above there were aggregation tests/ microscopy to verify)"


His response is below:

"I have not seen that thread but will absolutely check it out. We've tested on quite a few strains of Dino which all went down fairly easy. There are quite a few reviews from people on our site who had bad Dino outbreaks as well as on our post on Facebook that had the same outcome as our testing."

So, I dosed it. Twice so far and there has been significant impact. most areas of the gravel are now completely clear and the areas that were heavy, although not completely gone are no longer thick and more of a very thin dusting. While I never did determine if these were Dino's or not for sure, I think it bears some more investigation considering how wide spread and damaging that Dino's can be.
Jeff
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  #58  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:14 PM
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Jeff you are right, Dinos contain toxic substances, this is the reason why snails for example do die off when Dinos are present. Similar situation with fish they look like drunken and jumpy when they eat them.

Can you tell us something more about the product or a link to the manufacturers information about it ?

G.Alexander
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  #59  
Old 01-22-2018, 03:30 PM
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@G.Alexander
Here is the link to the manufacturers ...

https://www.uwcmn.com/

When you go to this link you will think you are in the wrong place. This is custom aquarium and maintenance company. From what I have read, they have custom aquariums all over the US. They have to maintain these and in order to keep the aquariums cleaner in between visits, they contracted with a lab to create something that would accomplish this. The product that they came up with is a combination of different strains of bacteria and a little vinegar. Now of course they won't tell you what strains they are, and i would bet they are probably heavily modified anyway, but these bacteria attack algae from various directions, some, head on, destroying and consuming the algae, some compete more efficiently for the same nutrients that the algae need. (my phosphates had stabilized at .04 ppm and when I treated, they dropped to .01 ppm) Now, I don't know the details and I doubt they share but it does appear to work. People started asking how they were able to keep their tanks so clean and all they would answer was a homemade cleaning product. They they were always asked if they could by some and they answer was no, it is for our use only. Eventually, they reconsidered and they sell it directly and I think they have one other retailer. Its very cost effective and so far I have been very impressed with it. They have several different variations, freshwater, saltwater (fish only) and reef. I think reef is the weakest so the corals are not damaged and I have seen that to be true so far. The link up above is the manufacturer, but I found this link to be of the most interest.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/vi...thread.271428/

Jeff
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  #60  
Old 01-23-2018, 06:41 AM
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Thank you for the additional information and the link. Sounds really promising as there are not really any 100% working fixes for Dinos and if the product does not have a negative impact to the biology it sounds perfect.

G.Alexander
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